WHAT
IS MY OFFENSE?
INTERVIEW WITH SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC.
Interviewers, Jared Israel and
Nico Varkevisser
Reprinted from www.pravda.ru
[Posted 15 August 2002]www.tenec.net Emperor's Clothes
=======================================
At 7:00 PM the phone rang. I was asleep in the hotel
room, dreaming I was in Serbia.
"We're going to see Milosevic. Please hurry!"
I splashed water on my face, grabbed a mini tape recorder
and a dilapidated writing tablet and hurried downstairs.
In front of our very modest hotel I got in a car with
Vladimir Krsljanin who's the Foreign Secretary of the
SPS, Mr. Milosevic's party. We sped away through the
streets of Belgrade, which is familiar but also so
different from New York and Boston. For one thing, there
are the bombed buildings, like movie sets. But real.
We arrived at the Milosevic family's temporary home.
Their own house had been bombed by NATO so they were
staying in a place built for former President Tito and
now owned by the Yugoslav Army.
This was March 2001, almost six months after a
Western-sponsored coup d'etat overthrew the elected
Milosevic government. The house was guarded by the Army.
The claims, spread by the coup authorities and the
Western media, that Mr. Milosevic was guarded by drunken
private guards, were simply lies. I saw several alert
sentries in Yugoslav Army uniforms with automatic rifles.
We were stopped three times as we drove up the long
driveway, finally getting out in front of the house.
We were greeted there by Mr. Milosevic and several
associates.
It was a stunning moment for me. My entire visit to
Serbia, so far just one week, had been culture shock.
Since October 1998 I had spent virtually all my time
studying Yugoslavia, talking by phone to Yugoslavs inside
and outside Serbia, and writing.
We were ushered into a fairly large, pleasant but simply
furnished room. It was mainly empty except for white
chairs and small, white, leather couches arranged in a
rectangle. The room had been furnished to allow a dozen
people to sit and talk, facing each other. In front of
each couch was a small coffee table with refreshments,
cups of espresso and the Turkish coffee everyone drinks
in Serbia, sweet and dense as mud.
Two seats away from me to my right was Mr. Milosevic. To
my left was Zjevadeen Jovanovic, former Foreign Minister
of Yugoslavia.
First, regarding Milosevic: he is impressive and entirely
unlike the descriptions in the Western press.
Intelligent, calm and dignified, a man who knows who he
is and doesn't have to tell everyone. I found this to be
generally true of the Serbian people, regardless of
status; they have a certain confidence, dignity.
He was funny. It's hard to capture humor when you're
writing from notes, and his humor was dry. He was
gracious.
They all were. I used to smoke, but no more. But
Milosevic offered me a cigarette and I took it without
thinking. He leaned forward and lit it.
A few of Milosevic's associates were in the room. Several
times he took out a cigarette but nobody would rush
forward to light it. This was not the comic book egotist
the media has described. There was no self-importance on
his part, no fawning on theirs.
At the start, I reached into my jacket pocket and pulled
out a small black object - my tape recorder. Imagine if I
had done this in a meeting with a Western leader under
siege. And since the coup d'etat Milosevic was definitely
under siege. I probably would have been jumped by guards.
Zjevadeen Jovanovic patted my hand in a friendly way,
smiled. "Please. The tape recorder will make him
uncomfortable. Can you take notes?"
So I used the dilapidated writing pad which unfortunately
fell apart later. When I got back to the US I thought I'd
lost some of the pages. I just found them now, folded in
a jacket pocket. Hence this interview, published a year
and a half late.
The following is a compilation of Slobodan Milosevic's
answers to questions, as recorded by me and also by Nico
Varkevisser, from Holland. Milosevic's comments are
mostly organized by categories, with only a few remarks
by Nico or me.
-- Jared Israel
Interview with Slobodan Milosevic
ETHNIC GROUPS
The fact that different ethnic groups are in a country
could be a wealth for that country. Yugoslavia was a
modern federation with different cultures, heritages,
living mainly in harmony. When the question of who is
Macedonian, who is Croatian, etc., was imposed from the
outside, like a torpedo, it produced problems. How could
Croats have an interest in the dissolution of Yugoslavia
when a part of the Croatian people was living in Bosnia
and so on? Or Muslims? And what would become of us,
divided into little states?
The existence of Yugoslavia was a solution to the Serbian
people's national cohesion. Serbs were all together in
the same Federation. It was not in the interest of any
national group to destroy Yugoslavia.
In Europe there is no recognition of cultural and ethnic
differences. Every country needs new formulas adapted to
deal with cultural and ethnic differences in a respectful
fashion. Yugoslavia had such a code. That is one of the
reasons Yugoslavia was not recognized as a solution by
certain international forces. They didn't want our kind
of solution. They didn't want the example. They had
another solution, which is at the core of their strategy
for conquest, the solution of using ethnic differences to
destabilize, divide et impera.
As for the charge of racism, which originates from the
very forces which stir up race hate, let me ask them a
question. Why is it that most Serbs have been purged from
Croatia but not only have Croats stayed, unharmed, in
Serbia, but tens of thousands of Croatian, Bosnian Muslim
and Kosovo Albanian refugees have been welcomed here? Why
is that the Roma, bellwether of racism in Europe, are so
loyal to Yugoslavia and Serbia?
Today Serbia has a large non-Serbian population, the same
as before the destruction of Yugoslavia. But Slovenia and
Croatia are "pure".
US HEGEMONY
During the 1999 war I received different representatives
from the Italian political scene, from both the left and
the right. They said we are not functioning as an
independent country. Nobody was asking them, "Are
you ready to attack your neighboring country?"
NATO is supposedly an alliance. An alliance means equal
states. But in fact, NATO was a war machine imposed by
the US. Big Master didn't ask the Italians, "Do you
think we should bomb that Serbian passenger train?"
It's understandable for the USA, as the most powerful
nation, to aspire to a leading role. But precisely what
role?
I told the Americans in 1998: "You could have been
benevolent and everyone would have applauded. But instead
you chose the path of Caesar, spreading blood and killing
nations. So you missed the millennium, not just the
century. It would be comic if it wasn't tragic."
I told the US Balkans envoy, Richard Holbrooke,
"Don't tell me you're interested in Albanians. *I'm*
interested in Albanians. You have entirely different
goals."
And Holbrooke said, "We have to be international
leaders."
And I said, "Why does that have to be at our
expense?"
Now we are seeing the destabilization of the whole of
Southeastern Europe including Greece. Macedonia is under
terrorist attack. They will start destabilizing Bulgaria
soon. They will of course create problems in Romania as
well.
1997 MEETING OF SOUTHEAST EUROPEAN LEADERS
Everything has become transparent. Consider this very
brief history. In October 1997, leaders of the Southeast
European countries met. All of us. We established a very
good understanding. I suggested, "Let's do something
for ourselves. Let's abolish customs fees among
ourselves." The meeting was very good. I had
excellent person to person discussions with Fatos Nano,
the Albanian Prime Minister. We discussed opening our
borders and he said Kosovo is an internal problem of our
country. The message of that meeting was that in
Southeast Europe things are going to be solved by mutual
consultation.
A month later I received a letter from German Foreign
Minister Klaus Kinkle and French Foreign Minister Hubert
Vedrine stating that they were very concerned about
Albanians. And then of course the BND [German
intelligence] organized the so-called UCK [KLA] in 1998.
They started to shoot, to kill postmen, foresters; they
threw bombs in cafes, near green markets. We reacted as
any state would react. By summer of 1998 they were gone.
Destroyed.
At that point [U.S. Balkans Envoy] Richard Holbrooke came
here to insist that his armed personal be allowed into
Kosovo. As observors, he said
We talked. Our discussions were frustrating. We would
solve a problem one day and Holbrooke would re-open it
the next. I would say, "But we solved that problem
yesterday!" And he would say,
"Instructions."
He wanted to send in 20,000 armed so-called observers.
This was accompanied by the threat that NATO would bomb
us. We tried to minimize the harm of this blackmail, to
rouse world public opinion. At the same time we whittled
down Holbrooke's demands from 20,000 to 2000. And from
armed to unarmed so-called observors. So, something less
than outright armed invasion. Though still an assault on
our sovereignty.
They put a criminal, William Walker, in charge of their
Observors. This is a man who worked with death squads in
El Salvador. Supposedly a diplomat. His Observors were
mostly intelligence operatives, behind the veneer of a
private American company. [Milosevic is referring here to
DynCorp - Ed.]
Walker created Racak, the phony massacre, based on his El
Salvador expertise. Racak was then used by Madeleine
Albright to justify their ultimatum to negotiate at
Rambouillet. We were told: negotiate or be bombed. Of
course, under international law, no treaty that results
from threats is legally binding. But that wasn't their
concern.
We decided to use these supposed negotiations to
illustrate our stand. Our delegation was a composite of
our national groups. It included ethnic Serbs, Albanians,
Gorani [Slavic Muslims], Roma ["Gypsies"],
Turks. The composition of Kosovo before the UCK [Kosovo
Liberation Army] drove most of them out.
Meanwhile, the complete text of the Rambouillet
"agreement" appeared in an Albanian publication
three days before our delegation even arrived in France.
Do you see? It was drawn up in advance.
So our delegates read the thing. One showed it to the
Americans, saying, "Look, this is badly done. It's
garbage." And one of the Americans said, "What
are you talking about? It was prepared by James O'Brien!
One of our best men! He drew up the complete documents
for the autonomy of Tibet!"
That's what we had to deal with.
And Clinton? He actually said Serbs were responsible for
W.W.I and W.W.II.
MEDIA LIES THAT KILL
An Israeli newspaper asked me if the anti-Serb
media demonization was a form of genocide. After all, the
demonization was used to justify the air war, which
involved almost exclusively bombing of civilians,
destroying normal life, the life of a people.
The Serbs are the only Europeans who have been bombed
since World War II. 22,000 tons of bombs. Without the
avalanche of media lies, ordinary Western citizens would
never have allowed it. So the demonization was a crucial
part of the war machine, limiting international protest.
It was part of the genocide.
People in the NATO countries are not yet aware they were
lied to. And they aren't aware how much harm this has
done to their societies. Clinton's administration put
lies into an ostensibly democratic institutional
apparatus thus preventing any possibility of democracy.
How can people make choices when they're basing their
thinking on lies?
NEW TYPE OF COLONIALISM
The destruction of Yugoslavia is material proof that the
U.S. and other forces are engaged in a new colonialism.
If their big words about world integration were true,
they would have preserved Yugoslavia. It embodied
precisely such integration. Nobody can be against
integration if it is just, if people are treated equally.
The new colonialism consists in making the small part
richer, the big part poorer, and killing nations. If you
lose your country, your independence and freedom, all
other battles are lost. How can you organize a country
for prosperity when you don't have a country?
If we understand that we're facing a new type of
colonialism, one that attacks national sovereignty, we
can pull all our forces together. The Left once grasped
this idea, which is why Imperial forces penetrated the
Left.
Now the Left is often worse than the Right. In Germany
they removed Kohl and put in Schroeder, who will do
anything for the Americans. Gorbachev was an American guy
as well. He destroyed the Soviet Union for them.
For years the Russians have functioned as if under
hypnosis. The Americans succeeded in hypnotizing them
into believing their economy depends on the IMF and the
World Bank. Hundreds of Billions have been taken out of
Russia; the lives of ordinary people are destroyed; and
they waste time negotiating IMF loans.
Consider the possibilities. The whole of Western Europe
is relying on natural gas production. Why isn't Russia
the big supplier? It could if the Russians had that in
mind instead of playing this fool's game of relying on
the IMF.
Look at the economic models the IMF enforces! Kenneth
Galbraith, the American economist, said, "If the
Americans deployed these economic models in America
they'd be destroyed."
The question for Russians is: When will you realize the
need and possibility to be your own masters? There is no
way to play the Americans' game and win. The USA controls
the entire international banking system.
MILOSEVIC'S GOLD
I have been attacked for everything. The U.S. envoy,
Richard Holbrooke, once told me, the Swiss government is
going to freeze your accounts. I said, "Why stop
there? Here, wait a moment." I wrote a few words and
gave him the paper. "Here. I've signed all my
foreign bank account assets over to you. You may keep
every penny."
He was taken aback. "I may?"
I said, "Yes! Unfortunately, there are no
accounts."
Generally in banking you cannot have presidents of
countries hiding vast amounts of money. It's simply
nonsense. The goal of all the news reports about how they
haven't yet found my money is to give people the false
impression that there's something to look for.
THE MEDIA AND BLAMING THE VICTIM
The other night I was watching TVBK, a private Serbian TV
station. Someone was criticizing the media, and right in
the middle, the station cut the power. Just like that.
The screen went black. It shows how worried this DOS
regime [installed in a coup d'etat in October 2000] is
when faced with the least critical thought.
They accuse me of having been a dictator. That's
ridiculous. Before the DOS coup d'etat we had democracy.
95% of the media was privately owned and the opposition
controlled most of it. In Kosovo the Albanians had more
than 20 different media. In any neighborhood you could
buy a newspaper attacking the government.
We didn't have one political prisoner. But this new
regime has issued so-called 'amnesty' laws, freeing
members of the KLA convicted for murdering children and
the like. They call this 'the new political freedom.' I
call it legalizing terror.
How did my supposed dictatorship manifest itself? Ibrahim
Rugova, the Albanian secessionist leader, could have a
press conference in Belgrade. He could walk around
freely, have lunch, and criticize everything. And he did.
Nobody bothered him.
They've accused me of being behind a rash of killings
that occurred before the coup d'etat. The Defense
Minister was killed. The Prime Minister of the province
of Vojvodina was killed. The Secretary General of the
Yugoslav Left. The Deputy Interior Minister of Serbia.
The Managing Director of Yugoslav Airlines, a friend of
mine since Gymnasium, he was killed. These were people I
worked with, friends. No opposition leader was killed.
So, I was killing my friends and sparing my enemies. A
unique strategy.
When a crime occurs, shouldn't one ask: Qui bono? [Who
gains?] Isn't it obvious that these killings were carried
out to benefit our foreign opponents? That they were an
attempt to intimidate men and women in our government?
But the Western-controlled media says I was responsible.
The opposition media demonized our government and me and
my family in every possible way. They accused my son of
being a criminal.
The TV mixed these slanders with programs imported from
America; flashy images, seductive especially to young
people. They are doing this all over the world. It is a
cultural attack.
Of course it had some effect. People in our country
aren't used to advertising techniques based on the
repetition of false images. The opposition learned these
techniques from their US and other NATO handlers.
I've been using the term 'opposition', but in fact we had
no opposition. We had a Fifth Column. It was paid huge
sums by the people who bombed us. This was openly
admitted.
And this Fifth Column, who now occupy government
positions, has gone so far as to agree to cooperate with
the Hague Tribunal, a false Tribunal created as another
part of the genocide against the Serbs. Once in awhile
they arrest an Islamic Fundamentalist or a Croatian
fascist, to imply balance. But the goal is to destroy
those who uphold Yugoslavia, who defend Serbia, to leave
ordinary people vulnerable to attack and to make the
world think resistance is impossible.
This past week the current authorities in Belgrade
shipped their first victim to The Hague. He is a Serb
from Bosnia, active in refugee work.
And we are seeing Hague-type justice in Belgrade as well.
The present authorities have arrested Dragoljub Milanovic
the director of RTS [the State TV station].
This is how it went. In January, Hague Prosecutor, Carla
del Ponte, came to Belgrade. She accused me and Dragoljub
Milanovic of murder. Why? Because on April 23, 1999 NATO
bombed RTS, killing 16 people in one of their cruelest
bombing raids. And, she said, NATO had made it clear they
would bomb; so by her mad logic, we were responsible.
On April 8th French officials did threaten to bomb RTS.
On the 9th we surrounded the TV station with a human
shield, journalists, managers, officials, all together,
arms linked. Serbian citizens were doing the same on
bridges and in factories, everywhere. Then Wesley Clark
seemed to withdraw the threat, but in any case what were
we to do? Not go to work? Employees occupied our biggest
auto plant and wrote a letter appealing to NATO not to
bomb. NATO bombed anyway, killing and wounding scores of
people. Were the victims guilty? Mr. Milanovic was
working at RTS all month and could have been killed as
well. Would that have made him responsible for 17 deaths,
instead of 16?
Of course, Carla del Ponte works for NATO, for the
bombers. And the new Belgrade authorities who have now
actually arrested Dragoljub Milanovic on this crazy
charge, these people work for NATO too
WAR CRIMES - WHO IS GUILTY?
There were war crimes in
Kosovo. But by whom? By the terrorists, who
committed atrocities as a matter of course. By
NATO which never hurt our military. They bombed
our homes. They dropped cluster bombs on our
green markets. Bombs encased in uranium.
These are war crimes. And they are guilty of the
greatest crime of all: they launched an illegal,
aggressive war.
All their actions now, everything they do, is
intended to hide the criminal responsibility of
Clinton, Albright, Blair, Schroeder, Solana, all
the others. The worst war criminals.
But they accuse me. They say I ordered the
slaughter of Albanians in Kosovo. And to prove it
they sent forensic experts all over Kosovo,
looking for atrocities. This was a propaganda
effort, not a scientific investigation. It was
theater - for the media. Every step these experts
took was reported: they are looking for the
bodies; they will soon unearth the bodies; they
have found a shoe; and so on. With all that,
people had to assume: there must be some serious
crimes here.
The news that they were looking was big news but
the news that they had found nothing - that was
very small news. It is my opinion that many
people in your countries still believe we
committed genocide against Albanians in Kosovo.
THE JUNE 1999 PEACE ACCORDS
At the end of May 1999 the Russians proposed to
us the so-called Yeltsin peace plan. It was good.
Then it appears the Russians met with the
Americans in Finland, and when the Russian envoy,
Victor Chernomyrdin arrived in Belgrade the plan
was entirely different. Kosovo was said to remain
a part of Yugoslavia but the plan also called for
full withdrawal of Yugoslav forces and for UN
occupation. We said, how do we know this will not
turn into NATO occupation and UCK [KLA] terror?
Chernomyrdin swore to us that our Russian
brothers would not permit this.
What were we to do? On the one hand, the Russian
administration promised not to let NATO take
over. On the other hand, there was a clear
threat. NATO had begun carpet bombing of Kosovo.
If we did not accept, the Russians made it clear
they would withdraw their support and we would be
condemned in the international media as
warmongers who wouldn't even accept a peace plan
from our Russian brothers. So we agreed to sign.
Our government leadership discussed it, and then
it was discussed in parliament, which voted to
sign the agreement.
THE OCT. 5TH COUP IN BELGRADE
After the October 5th coup d'etat I resigned the
presidency.
I didn't have to do that. We could have mounted a
counter attack. But our government discussed the
situation. It was our opinion that the foreign
powers wanted to provoke a bloodbath. Their idea
was, we would strongly resist; their Fifth Column
would stage violent provocations; we would act to
preserve order; and then their agents would stage
murderous incidents for the camera, blaming us to
create the impression of ruthless repression.
Then under cover of defending themselves they
could carry out a Chilean solution, supported by
outside forces.
Also, many ordinary people were at that time
deceived by the DOS media, by the demonization of
our government and by many false promises,
seemingly backed-up by images from Western TV,
seductive images of wealth.
It was our opinion that NATO wanted to provoke
civil war, have a blood bath and let the Serbs
kill each other. Create a pretext for
intervention.
We have direct experience with war. The losses
cannot be replaced. So if possible, it is better
to make a struggle in the political sphere.
So I resigned. This took the Americans by
surprise. I am told that [US Secretary of State
Madeleine] Albright called Steven Erlanger from
the NY Times on the sixth of October, very upset.
"Is it possible he resigned?" She
couldn't believe it. It spoiled their plans.
ON THE ECONOMY
* NICO VARKEVISSER ASKED *
Do you think current economic problems stem from
the incompetence of the new authorities, or have
they been deliberately created?
* PRESIDENT MILOSEVIC ANSWERED *
Definitely deliberate. The economy has been
ruined. Competent managers have been driven out
using violence or threats. They've been replaced
with people who are incompetent but do what the
authorities tell them. And what do they tell
them? To paralyze the economy, to bankrupt entire
industries so they can be sold for peanuts to
their patrons in the West. This isn't like
old-fashioned colonialism. The foreigners put
their proxies in power and simply strip the
country, destroy local productive capacity and
then dump their junk.
Here's an example: Before the coup d'etat we were
producing 400,000 to 500,000 tons of fertilizer
per year. We were exporting fertilizer. But I
read in the newspaper that this year we already
had to import 90,000 tons. And it is inferior
quality.
In our Constitution [of the Federal Republic of
Yugoslavia] we put an article stating that all
kinds of property would have equal protection.
Our intention was that privatization would be
linked to the development of the economy, that it
would be carried out insofar as it aided the
economy. Our goal was optimal development of all
forms of property. We were saying we would not
ban any approach based on ideological disapproval
of some form of property.
You must understand what we had before. Consider
the question of land. In the past, under the old
Yugoslavia, the Socialist Republic, more than 90%
of the land was private. We never had
cooperatives.
We had had a 10-hectare limit on the size of a
farm. But new technologies meant that 10 hectares
was too small. A single family, if properly
organized, could handle much more land. A child
might be able to operate irrigation technologies,
where before they required immense labor. We're
not talking about latifundia here - why limit
property to 10 hectares and have farmers living
in poverty? Our aim was not to get into total
privatization, just to have optional structures.
Those tough sanctions that were imposed on us in
1993 completely blocked the economy. For several
months we had 350 million percent inflation. We
responded by developing a plan that cut inflation
to zero in 1994. The main element was the
decision to finance the budget with real wealth.
Before that we always simply set a budget to
finance education, health, state administrative
functions and so on. Then we paid salaries this
month by printing money, expecting that we'd
bring in the money next month. When inflation
started there was no way to cover costs based on
income from taxes, so we took strong measures:
the printing of money was cut. We said, you will
get salaries as soon as the state gets money from
taxes
But with all our problems, consider the
difference between the neighboring countries and us. We had one million
refugees, war, sanctions, a total blockade. Not
only didn't Bulgaria and Rumania have sanctions
and war, but they were associate members of the
European union so they should have had some gains
from that position. Yet there were thousands of
Bulgarians and Romanians coming here, looking for
work. Why? Because our neighbors were devastated
by the policies enforced by their Western
friends.
In the first winter after the NATO bombing [i.e.,
the winter of 1999-2000] we had no restrictions
on heating. That was a fierce winter. The next
winter was mild, but the new so-called Democrats
[Mr. Milosevic is referring to the 'Democratic'
Opposition of Serbia, which seized power in a
coup d'etat Oct. 5, 2000] with all their promises
that the West would do this and do that - what
did they achieve? Constant electrical shortages.
And remember, we heat mostly with electricity.
How can I help but be proud of what we achieved?
* JARED ISRAEL *
Speaking of that, I think you should be proud of
your courage, staying in Yugoslavia after the
coup d'etat last October, despite the threats
against you.
* SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC *
Thank you. I imagine they hoped I would run away.
Interviewers,
Jared Israel and Nico Varkevisser ŠAugust,2002
Reprinted from www.pravda.ru
[Posted 15 August 2002] ======================
FURTHER READING:
======================
* Slobodan Milosevic's famous speech at Kosovo
Field, 1989, official US
government translation: http://emperors-clothes.com/milo/milosaid.html
BBC translation: http://emperors-clothes.com/milo/versions.htm
* Prof. Francisco Gil-White's analysis of the
avalanche of what can only be described as lies
about the 1989 Milsoevic speech at Kosovo Field,
"Media Misrepresentation of Milosevic's
Words: A Review of the Evidence,"
at http://emperors-clothes.com/milo/gw.htm
* Streaming video, "Take Your Suitcases of
Cash, Mr. Djindjic!" - Jared Israel
interviewed for Serbian TV http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/jared/tv.htm
* Streaming video of Serbian rally March 24, 2001
including speech by Mr. Israel
http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/jared/rally.htm
Article: "KLA Attacks Everyone; Media
Attacks...Miloshevich?" by Jared Israel at http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/jared/expan.htm
|
|