SEPTEMBER 2005

Countries to Consider

CD: Can you elaborate here on what countries you mean?

SE: It's interesting, in one of my interviews, they say "Turkish countries," but I believe they meant Turkic countries ? that is, Turkey, Azerbaijan, and all the 'Stans, including Tajikistan and Kyrgyzstan, and [non-Turkic countries like] Afghanistan and Pakistan. All of these countries play a big part in the sort of things I have been talking about.

CD: What, you mean drug-smuggling?

SE: Among other things. Yes, that is a major part of it. It's amazing that in this whole "war on terror" thing, no one ever talks about these issues. No one asks questions about these countries ? questions like, "OK, how much of their GDP depends on drugs?"

CD: But of course, you're not implying.

SE: And then to compare that little survey with what countries we've been putting military bases in ?

CD: I'm shocked! Shocked, I tell you!

SE: You know how they always talk about these Islamic charities funding the terrorists, right?

CD: Yes.

SE: Well, and this is not a firm statistic, just a sort of ratio. but these charities are responsible for maybe 10 or 20 percent of al-Qaeda's fundraising. So where is the other 80 or 90 percent coming from? People, it's not so difficult!

How It All Works

CD: So tell me something, say, in the case of drugs from Central Asia to Europe to America. When they come through Turkey, what is the procedure?

SE: Well, I am not an expert on this. I know some of it gets to be processed in Turkey and travels in the Balkans. I know Holland is very important. But you might know better than me, being over there. I only know from this end, in North America.

CD: Okay, so when the drugs ?

SE: Not only drugs.

CD: Okay, so when whatever kinds of criminal contraband enter the U.S., then what happens to it?

SE: They are circulated by huge front companies. Of course, these companies often have a legitimate side to their businesses; maybe even the majority of their business is aboveboard. In this way, they arouse less suspicion. Say if it was, I don't know, a textiles company in Delaware. The stuff comes into port, and when it comes off the boat they open it up, and ?

CD: "Hey, great, more textiles!" Something like that?

SE: Sure. And then it gets sent everywhere, through other companies in other cities, other front companies under different owners or even different branches of the same company. They could be anywhere, Denver, Detroit, San Diego, and everywhere in between.

CD: It sounds very sophisticated.

SE: Oh, it's so sophisticated and so big, you can't imagine. and not only can they bring the stuff in, they can send it out. And do you think for a second the government doesn't know?

CD: Can you give any specific examples of such an operation?

SE: Well, not from my case, but there is quite a lot of public information about such things. A good example was the piece in the L.A. Times ?

CD: The black-market nuclear parts one?

SE: Yes, by Josh Meyer. From last year. That article gives a very good example of how such a scheme works.

CD: But that report came out of an official government investigation taking apart the smuggling ring, right?

SE: Yes it did, but that doesn't mean the business was ended.

CD: No?

SE: I think one of the guys involved, Asher Karni, got a short sentence. But the other guy, the big guy, Zeki Bilmen? He got off completely ? nothing.

CD: How?

SE: It's beyond logical explanation. Maybe it was decided in high places that no one would touch him.

CD: And we're talking about people who are trading in nuclear black-market goods with terrorists and countries like Pakistan?

SE: And anyone else who's willing to pay, for that matter. Zeki Bilmen is Turkish, but of Jewish background. He has a company, Giza Technologies in New Jersey, and everyone who works there is Turkish. He's worked closely with the Israelis. And business ? well, business is good.

They have many shipments going out, coming in, all day long. To places like Dubai, Spain, South Africa, Turkey. They have branches in all these places. Yep, they're sailing along very smoothly.

CD: So if we are talking about suspected nuclear proliferators here, how can the government be protecting them when at the same time they're talking about Iran or North Korea having nuclear weapons?

SE: Exactly! You tell me!

Zeroing In

CD: It must be very frustrating for you, not to be able to speak about what you know.

SE: Yeah, really, it's so frustrating.

CD: So since you are still gagged, is there anything you hope for, aside from getting heard before the Supreme Court? I mean, is there anything people can do?

SE: I hope that if anything comes of this new media attention, they [congressmen] might say, "You know what, one name is out there already," and maybe people will start to say the others.

Because enough people in Congress know who is involved and what the stakes are. It's not necessary for me to do it; any number of people can step forward. They just need to be a little more brave, and , yes, more patriotic. Because like I told you before, these kind of criminal acts some of our leaders are involved in do not have any benefit for 99.9 percent of the American people. And in fact they're actually very harmful for American and world security.

CD: So what do you hope for from the media? I mean, I know you suggested the media should concentrate on the State Secrets aspect rather than the "poor whistleblower" one. That's clear. But of course we would love to know more details, even general ones.

For example, can you give any kind of insight into where to look? I know some of these "semi-legitimate organizations" you've mentioned and how they operate. You discussed that at length in our first interview. But what about individuals? What is the profile of your average high-level crook?

SE: Well, you can piece things together fairly well, I think, and not just from what I have to say. A lot of information is already out there. Things like the L.A. Times article I mentioned, they give a lot of context. But generally, look at what we discussed here.

CD: You mean where such officials are to be found?

SE: Yes. Watch the Department of State. Watch people who are involved with the countries I mentioned above. Watch their careers, where they were stationed, what jobs they held, what were their areas of expertise, where these interests overlap. Were they involved with weapons procurement ever? Would anything in their resumé indicate knowledge of and experience in not one, but several of these countries I have mentioned?

Because you know, it is not very often you can find someone with the requisite linguistic and cultural training necessary for working with several countries simultaneously, as well as the acumen and right mindset for these kinds of adventures. There can't be many.

Look out for the organizations they're involved in. Look at where these memberships overlap. Two major lobby groups that have come out in one way or another have been the American-Turkish Council and AIPAC. They're not the only ones, but you can start with them. Look at their members, their leaders past and present. Look at where these names overlap with the qualities I mentioned above.

CD: Yes, that is good for background, but at the end of the day to have anything "real" it basically has to come down to what the guy had for breakfast that day.

I mean, even the Vanity Fair "revelation" had to admit that there was no way of proving Hastert was ever given $500,000 to scupper the Armenian genocide bill. So obviously he could just laugh it off. It ended on a very deflationary note.

SE: Yes, you have a point. But making specific charges in specific cases, no one in the media can ever do that without explicit evidence from someone very close to the investigation or activity.

What I am telling you is that this network is visible, and it is possible to grasp what's going on. And I think to a certain extent it's obvious that some of your neocons will be involved in these criminal activities. You don't need me to tell you that. But too often, they [the media] have looked in the wrong places.

CD: An example?

SE: Well, I'm wondering why in this "war on terror" they aren't taking a look at the role of banks in Dubai, banks in Cyprus ? they've always concentrated on banks in places like, say, Switzerland. They almost never look at these two other huge areas for money-laundering.

A Hypothetical

CD: Finally, Sibel, I was curious to ask you one sort of hypothetical question.

SE: Okay.

CD: Do you ever look back and wish you had done things differently? I mean, maybe you could have "played dumb" and stuck around a couple months longer in the FBI, and collected more "smoking gun" evidence, no? Like in some action/suspense movie.

SE: This is a very interesting question. But you know, I didn't have the luxury to think about it. I didn't have time to make a conscious decision.

CD: Why?

SE: Well, the biggest reason I started to talk and to push for an internal investigation was because my family was already under threat.

CD: You are referring to the period after you refused Can Dickerson's offer to work with her illegally?

SE: Yes. I knew that the [Turkish] person under investigation had already been given all my details, and at that point they were trying to make problems for my younger sister back in Turkey. And Senator [Chuck] Grassley was helping us to get asylum for her.

CD: So basically, my question is irrelevant.

SE: Well, how can you play it cool when your family is under threat?

CD: Indeed. So finally, even despite the total obstruction you have faced just to be able to get your day in court, do you feel like it has been worthwhile? And that there is something still that can be done to change things?

SE: Yes. I believe, and everyone who is concerned about their safety and security should know it is in their best interests to get this information out and let the chips fall where they may. And since this level of crime is so massive, it doesn't affect only Americans ? people in many countries have an interest in this too. The stakes are too high for us to stop fighting now.


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Peter Myers,